What does ergotized beer in Catalonia have anything to do with the Greek mysteries at Eleusis? So the Eastern Aegean. And there were probably other Eleusises like that to the east. But in Pompeii, for example, there's the villa of the mysteries, one of these really breathtaking finds that also survived the ravage of Mount Vesuvius. I imagine there are many more potion makers around than we typically recognize. It draws attention to this material. He's the god of wine. At Cambridge University he worked in developmental biolo. 25:15 Dionysus and the "pagan continuity hypothesis" 30:54 Gnosticism and Early Christianity . What was the real religion of the ancient Greeks? But the next event in this series will happen sooner than that. he goes out on a limb and says that black nightshade actually causes [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH], which is not unpleasant visions, i.e. And does it line up with the promise from John's gospel that anyone who drinks this becomes instantly immortal? I'm skeptical, Dr. Stang. I'm going to stop asking my questions, although I have a million more, as you well know, and instead try to ventriloquist the questions that are coming through at quite a clip through the Q&A. Maybe I have that wrong. And then that's the word that Euripides uses, by the way. Because my biggest question is, and the obvious question of the book is, if this was happening in antiquity, what does that mean for today? A combination of psychoactive plants, including opium, cannabis, and nightshade, along with the remains of reptiles and amphibians all steeped in wine, like a real witch's brew, uncovered in this house outside of Pompeii. General Stanley McChrystal Mastering Risk: A User's Guide | Brought to you by Kettle & Fire high quality, tasty, and conveniently packaged bone broths; Eight Sleep. BRIAN MURARESKU: It just happens to show up. Frankly, if you ask the world's leading archaeobotanists and archaeochemists, where's the spiked beer and where's the spiked wine, which I've been doing since about 2007, 2008, the resounding answer you'll get back from everybody is a resounding no. I mean, about 25 years ago, actually. So I want to propose that we stage this play in two acts. Not because they just found that altar. Tim Ferriss is a self-experimenter and bestselling author, best known for The 4-Hour Workweek, which has been translated into 40+ languages. Maybe for those facing the end of life. Let me start with the view-- the version of it that I think is less persuasive. Or maybe in palliative care. But it was just a process of putting these pieces together that I eventually found this data from the site Mas Castellar des Pontos in Spain. And what the FDA can do is make sure that they're doing it in a way that it's absolutely safe and efficacious. So don't feel like you have to go into great depth at this point. So I think this was a minority of early Christians. Is taking all these disciplines, whether it's your discipline or archaeochemistry or hard core botany, biology, even psychopharmacology, putting it all together and taking a look at this mystery, this puzzle, using the lens of psychedelics as a lens, really, to investigate not just the past but the future and the mystery of human consciousness. We have other textual evidence. There aren't any churches or basilicas, right, in the first three centuries, in this era we're calling paleo-Christianity. But the point being, if the Dionysian wine was psychedelic-- which I know is a big if-- I think the more important thing to show here in this pagan continuity hypothesis is that it's at least plausible that the earliest Christians would have at the very least read the Gospel of John and interpreted that paleo-Christian Eucharistic wine, in some communities, as a kind of Dionysian wine. Here's the big question. I'm happy to argue about that. Now, the great scholar of Greek religion, Walter Burkert, you quote him as musing, once-- and I'm going to quote him-- he says, "it may rather be asked, even without the prospect of a certain answer, whether the basis of the mysteries, they were prehistoric drug rituals, some festival imp of immortality which, through the expansion of consciousness, seemed to guarantee some psychedelic beyond." Mark and Brian cover the Eleusinian Mysteries, the pagan continuity hypothesis, early Christianity, lessons from famed religious scholar Karen Armstrong, overlooked aspects of influential philosopher William James's career, ancient wine and ancient beer, experiencing the divine within us, the importance of " tikkun olam "repairing and improving Which, again, what I see are small groups of people getting together to commune with the dead. Where are the drugs? Thank you for that. Thank you, sir. Hard archaeobotanical, archaeochemical data, I haven't seen it. So I went fully down the rabbit hole. So let's start with one that is more contemporary. I really tried. Now you're a good sport, Brian. It's not just Cana. OK. Now let's pan back because, we have-- I want to wrap up my interrogation of you, which I've been pressing you, but I feel as if perhaps people joining me think I'm hostile to this hypothesis. And her best guess is that it was like this open access sanctuary. There's some suggestive language in the pyramid texts, in the Book of the Dead and things of this nature. Rachel Peterson, who's well known to Brian and who's taken a lead in designing the series. Copyright 2023 President and Fellows of Harvard College. Is this only Marcus? Part 1 Brian C. Muraresku: The Eleusinian Mysteries, Discovering the Divine, The Immortality Key, The Pagan Continuity Hypothesis and the Hallucinogenic Origins of Religion 3 days ago Plants of the Gods: S4E1. What I see is data that's been largely neglected, and I think what serves this as a discipline is just that. CHARLES STANG: I have one more question about the pre-Christian story, and that has to do with that the other mystery religion you give such attention to. So why the silence from the heresiologists on a psychedelic sacrament? And what you're referring to is-- and how I begin the book is this beautiful Greek phrase, [SPEAKING GREEK]. It's some kind of wine-based concoction, some kind of something that is throwing these people into ecstasy. I mean, this really goes to my deep skepticism. That to live on forever and ever, to live an everlasting life is not immortality. And the big question for me was what was that something else? And anyone who drinks this, [SPEAKING GREEK], Jesus says in Greek, you remain in me and I in you. And I want to say that this question that we've been exploring the last half hour about what all this means for the present will be very much the topic of our next event on February 22, which is taking up the question of psychedelic chaplaincy. And maybe in these near-death experiences we begin to actually experience that at a visceral level. It is not psychedelics. There's a moment in the book where you are excited about some hard evidence. And she talks about kind of being born again, another promise from John's gospel. We're going to get there very soon. 44:48 Psychedelics and ancient cave art . And she talks about the visions that transformed the way she thinks about herself. So we move now into ancient history, but solidly into the historical record, however uneven that historical record is. And if there's historical precedent for it, all the more so. and he said, Brian, don't you dare. I was not going to put a book out there that was sensationalist. Again, if you're attracted to psychedelics, it's kind of an extreme thing, right? And they found this site, along with others around the Mediterranean. CHARLES STANG: You know, Valentinus was almost elected bishop of Rome. So the basic point being, as far as we can tell, beer and wine are routinely mixed with things that we don't do today. So this is interesting. Now the archaeologist of that site says-- I'm quoting from your book-- "For me, the Villa Vesuvio was a small farm that was specifically designed for the production of drugs." They minimized or completely removed the Jewish debates found in the New Testament, and they took on a style that was more palatable to the wider pagan world. But it was not far from a well-known colony in [INAUDIBLE] that was founded by Phocians. So I really follow the scholarship of Enriqueta Pons, who is the archaeologist on site there, at this Greek sanctuary that we're talking about in Catalonia, Mas Castellar des Pontos. CHARLES STANG: Brian, I wonder if you could end by reflecting on the meaning of dying before you die. So in the mountains and forests from Greece to Rome, including the Holy Land and Galilee. And so in my afterword, I present this as a blip on the archaeochemical radar. Joe Campbell puts it best that what we're after is an experience of being alive. Before I set forth the outline of this thesis, three topics must be discussed in order to establish a basic understanding of the religious terminology, Constantine's reign, and the contemporary sources. It's funny to see that some of the first basilicas outside Rome are popping up here, and in and around Pompeii. I mean, shouldn't everybody, shouldn't every Christian be wondering what kind of wine was on that table, or the tables of the earliest Christians? So you lean on the good work of Harvard's own Arthur Darby Nock, and more recently, the work of Dennis McDonald at Claremont School of Theology, to suggest that the author of the Gospel of John deliberately paints Jesus and his Eucharist in the colors of Dionysus. Rupert Sheldrake, PhD, is a biologist and author best known for his hypothesis of morphic resonance. That would require an entirely different kind of evidence. I wonder if you're familiar with Wouter Hanegraaff at the University of Amsterdam. And please just call me Charlie. Here's the proof of concept. And so I do see an avenue, like I kind of obliquely mentioned, but I do think there's an avenue within organized religion and for people who dedicate their lives as religious professionals to ministry to perhaps take a look at this in places where it might work. To this day I remain a psychedelic virgin quite proudly, and I spent the past 12 years, ever since that moment in 2007, researching what Houston Smith, perhaps one of the most influential religious historians of the 20th century, would call the best kept secret in history. A lot of Christianity, as you rightly point out, I mean, it was an Eastern phenomenon, all over the eastern Mediterranean. Several theories address the issue of the origin of the Romanians.The Romanian language descends from the Vulgar Latin dialects spoken in the Roman provinces north of the "Jireek Line" (a proposed notional line separating the predominantly Latin-speaking territories from the Greek-speaking lands in Southeastern Europe) in Late Antiquity.The theory of Daco-Roman continuity argues that the . Now, what's curious about this is we usually have-- Egypt plays a rather outsized role in our sense of early Christianity because-- and other adjacent or contemporary religious and philosophical movements, because everything in Egypt is preserved better than anywhere else in the Mediterranean. And Dennis, amongst others, calls that a signature Dionysian miracle. I mean, this is what I want to do with some of my remaining days on this planet, is take a look at all these different theories. BRIAN MURARESKU: I'm asked this question, I would say, in pretty much every interview I've done since late September. Let me just pull up my notes here. So at the very-- after the first half of the book is over, there's an epilogue, and I say, OK, here's the evidence. And how can you reasonably expect the church to recognize a psychedelic Eucharist? That's only after Constantine. Because again, when I read the clinical literature, I'm reading things that look like mystical experiences, or that at least at least sound like them. How does, in other words, how does religion sit with science? So, you know, I specifically wanted to avoid heavily relying on the 52 books of the [INAUDIBLE] corpus or heavily relying too much on the Gospel of Mary Magdalene and the evidence that's come from Egypt. Because what tends to happen in those experiences is a death and rebirth. So there's a whole slew of sites I want to test there. It seems entirely believable to me that we have a potion maker active near Pompeii. You might find it in a cemetery in Mexico. #646: Brian C. Muraresku with Dr. Mark Plotkin The Eleusinian Mysteries, Discovering the Divine, The Immortality Key, The Pagan Continuity Hypothesis, Lessons from Scholar Karen Armstrong, and Much More from The Tim Ferriss Show on Podchaser, aired Wednesday, 28th December 2022. And so the big question is what was happening there? Not because it's not there, because it hasn't been tested. Well, let's get into it then. Because every time I think about ancient wine, I am now immediately thinking about wine that is spiked. And I wonder whether the former narrative serves the interests of the latter. 474, ?] Interesting. And I'm happy to see we have over 800 people present for this conversation. And I offer psychedelics as one of those archaic techniques of ecstasy that seems to have been relevant and meaningful to our ancestors. Do you think that by calling the Eucharist a placebo that you're likely to persuade them? That is, by giving, by even floating the possibility of this kind of-- at times, what seems like a Dan Brown sort of story, like, oh my god, there's a whole history of Christianity that's been suppressed-- draws attention, but the real point is actually that you're not really certain about the story, but you're certain is that we need to be more attentive to this evidence and to assess it soberly. That is about the future rather than the ancient history. So why do you think psychedelics are so significant that they might usher in a new Reformation? And by the way, I'm not here trying to protect Christianity from the evidence of psychedelic use. You mentioned, too, early churchmen, experts in heresies by the name of Irenaeus of Lyons and Hippolytus of Rome. I appreciate this. One attendee has asked, "How have religious leaders reacted so far to your book? I think it's important you have made a distinction between what was Jesus doing at the Last Supper, as if we could ever find out. It's only in John that Jesus is described as being born in the lap of the Father, the [SPEAKING GREEK] in 1:18, very similar to the way that Dionysus sprung miraculously from the thigh of Zeus, and on and on and on-- which I'm not going to bore you and the audience. They linked the idea of witches to an imagined organized sect which was a danger to the Christian commonwealth. This 'pagan continuity hypothesis' with a psychedelic twist is now backed up by biochemistry and agrochemistry and tons of historical research, exposing our forgotten history. Oh, I hope I haven't offended you, Brian. So those are all possibly different questions to ask and answer. And there you also found mortars that were tested and also tested positive for evidence of brewing. You become one with Christ by drinking that. CHARLES STANG: My name is Charles Stang, and I'm the director of the Center for the Study of World Religions here at Harvard Divinity School. That is my dog Xena. No, I think you-- this is why we're friends, Charlie. There have been breakthroughs, too, which no doubt kept Brian going despite some skepticism from the academy, to say the least. So it wasn't just a random place to find one of these spiked wines. This is true. So I don't write this to antagonize them or the church, the people who, again, ushered me into this discipline and into these questions. Now, let's get started, Brian. I see something that's happening to people. And so in some of these psychedelic trials, under the right conditions, I do see genuine religious experiences. But by and large, no, we don't really know. Was there any similarity from that potion to what was drunk at Eleusis? Here's your Western Eleusis. This time around, we have a very special edition featuring Dr. Mark Plotkin and Brian C . I'll invite him to think about the future of religion in light of all this. So back in 2012, archaeologists and chemists were scraping some of these giant limestone troughs, and out pops calcium oxalate, which is one of these biomarkers for the fermentation of brewing. All that will be announced through our mailing list. So frankly, what happens during the Neolithic, we don't know, at least from a scientific vantage. Many people see that as symbolic or allegorical or just a nice thing, which is not the case. The same Rome that circumstantially shows up, and south of Rome, where Constantine would build his basilicas in Naples and Capua later on. Brian C. Muraresku with Dr. Mark Plotkin: The Eleusinian Mysteries, Discovering the Divine, The Immortality Key, The Pagan Continuity Hypothesis, Psychedelics, and More | Tim Ferriss Show #646 I mean, I asked lots of big questions in the book, and I fully acknowledge that. CHARLES STANG: Well, Mr, Muraresku, you are hedging your bets here in a way that you do not necessarily hedge your bets in the book. Despite its popular appeal as a New York Times Bestseller, TIK fails to make a compelling case for its grand theory of the "pagan continuity hypothesis with a psychedelic twist" due to. CHARLES STANG: I do, too. So what have you learned about the Eleusinian mysteries in particular since Ruck took this up, and what has convinced you that Ruck's hypothesis holds water? Examine the pros and cons of the continuity theory of aging, specifically in terms of how it neglects to consider social institutions or chronically ill adults. And that the proof of concept idea is that we need to-- we, meaning historians of the ancient world, need to bring all the kinds of resources to bear on this to get better evidence and an interpretive frame for making sense of it. Certainly these early churchmen used whatever they could against the forms of Christian practice they disapproved of, especially those they categorized as Gnostic. And at the same time, when I see a thirst, especially in young people, for real experience, and I see so many Catholics who do not believe in transubstantiation, obviously, what comes to my mind is how, if at all, can psychedelics enhance faith or reinvent Christianity. So Brian, I wonder, maybe we should give the floor to you and ask you to speak about, what are the questions you think both ancient historians such as myself should be asking that we're not, and maybe what are the sorts of questions that people who aren't ancient historians but who are drawn to this evidence, to your narrative, and to the present and the future of religion, what sort of questions should they be asking regarding psychedelics?